4E D&D Revisit

I really want to give 4E another go. As I've stated We really enjoyed it. But I just didn't feel it was a game we would continue to play. I have really been focusing on rules-lite games. And has nothing to do with most criticism
against it.

Most of the criticisms again 4E really doesn't matter to us. Yes its tactical and uses minis. Yes it has elements in common with online MMORPGs. My players love strategic mini games and all have or do play Online MMORPGs. Most of those elements are just common elements between the two. It just uses the MMORPG terminology for it. Who doesn't have the fighter first in marching order rather than the wizard. Now it is called a defender or tank. But the job is the same, Meat shield.

I just felt the system was far from rules lite. But to be fair I'm coming into it years after the release with tons of material out for it. Tons of material, Tons of options and abilities. With the release of the essentials and articles like this one by Greywulf I have really been thinking it over. Much of this is my perspective. I really don't need all three players hand books for every game. Or even every ability from players hand book one.

Before I permanently shelf my 4E books I really need to scale a game back a bit and play the game with out trying to include every bit of material I can find. I'm debating getting some essentials books.

Limited Advancement (looking at E6)

Limiting advancement is something I have been thinking about for a while. One decision I made in my C&C game was to end advancement at level 10. I want to add talents (renamed Feats) but at a much slower pace. Since I find Feat bloat a major turn off for me in 3rd edition.

Another bloat I really hated is Hit points. Although It doesn't bothers me as much as it used to. But I used to hate that a fall from a roof could kill a level one character. And a level 10 could take crazy amounts damage.
I think its one of the reasons I prefer to run low level adventures and rarely like to continue a campaign past level 6 or 8.

The other day I stumbled across E6 (Epic 6). It is basically the Idea of ending progression at level 6. At every 5000 exp you give out a feat. The basics of it is to make a gritty and more tolken'esq style of game.

Here is some info on it from: Epic_6 Wiki

Q: Where did E6 come from? A: E6 was inspired by the article Gandalf was a Fifth-Level Magic User by Bill Seligman. The article was published in The Dragon (which became Dragon magazine) in issue #5, March 1977. When I first had the concept of E6, where we used the first six levels for the whole game, my very first step was pitching it to my players. Some thought it was a great idea, and the rest were willing to give it a try, so I gave it a shot. E6 worked really well for our tastes, and we've done lots of playing inside E6 since then. Back then E6 was a lot more convoluted than it is now: there were intricate quasi-gestalt rules and several other little things that weren’t so much about the cap as they were about my group’s thoughts on D&D class balance. Over time, we found that the only rules we were really using (on both sides of the screen) were the feat rules, and that was producing a great play experience. So when I returned to E6 just recently, that’s how I wrote it up: As it was actually played.

Q: Why 6th level for the cap? Why not 12th, or 20th? A: My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and against the CR system. Also, there was an element of setting assumptions; each class is strong enough that they're well defined in their role, but not so strong that lower-level characters don't matter to them any more.

While I'm not sure if I want to go to the extremes of only going to level 6 in my games. Although I may just try it. What if i was to cap some things at lower levels though? Like maybe hit point progression.

Pathfinder And C&C

While I gave 4E a chance and decided it was not for me. Once again I think its a good game. Just more complex than my current tastes in games. I really never gave pathfinder a fair shake. I got the Playtests. Alpha, The two betas,  And eventually the PDF of the main book when it came out.

What I didn't do was look at how the game could be used, Besides whole cloth. With 4E I really feel you can choose what you want to include like which classes or races but its kind of tough to not use big parts of the games.Or at least that is my opinion.

After really giving C&C a try I see how 3E can be changed to be a simpler more customized version of the game. Even so much to emulate older editions of the game.I posted Some optional rules about adding feats as "talents", back to the game. But just a few. Since feat bloat and abuse was something I didn't like about 3E.
Sunsword posted a reply to one of my posts that really got me thinking.

Sunsword said...

  "I keep thinking of running Pathfinder without Feats. IMHO, Pathfinder isn't that different from 2E without Feats. Keep us posted on what you work up. I've also looked at expanding the Save progression from 3.x to replace the SIEGE engine. 2 or 3 Attributes would have Good Saves, depending on Race. The rest would be Poor Saves."

It really got me rereading my pathfinder PDF. I may not want to run pathfinder whole cloth. But what could I use from pathfinder to enhance my C&C game. While I like the SIEGE engine just fine. I really like The three saves from 3E. I've even put some thought into using Saves as target number like in 4E. More to come.

Castles & Crusades, Optional rules. Pt.2

Another optional Rule I am really thinking about using is spell points.

I have never been fond of "cast and forget" magic. I kind of understand it coming from war gaming roots. But beyond that I don't get it. If you like it that is cool. I just don't care for it, never have.

Im thinking about using each level as spell as a set number of spell points. So if a character can caste 3 level one spells than he can caste any 3 level one spells he knows in a day. This is true for every level of spell. All but  level 0. Level 0 spells are unlimited. The number on the spell chart is the number of level 0 spells a character knows.

I really like the Background optional rules by Jason Vey. I'm really thinking about giving it a roll too.

I'm seriously thinking about maxing out level at 12. With the way C&C is laid out level 12 seems just fine for max. I don't see any reason for progression on.

Hit Die start at max at first level. This was one of my first house rules back playing AD&D.

On a roll of 1 the character fumbles the attack and looses the rest of their turn.
A roll of 20 is an auto hit no matter what roll was needed. On an attack roll weapons do max damage.

I will be using the Background optional rules by Jason Vey. Players will get one roll on the chart and then find a way to explain the background.

Castles & Crusades, Optional rules.

The more I think about it I really like the Idea of adding the three saves from 3E. Im not sure yet if I want to make the saves target numbers like they are in 4E. If I do I might keep the C&C saves just as they are. Im still rolling this option around in my head.

On the idea of using feats. were one reason I didn't like 3E much. Feat bloat made the game more complex than I prefer at higher levels. And most power gaming I saw with 3E was through the use of feats. So I don't tread on this idea lightly. I'm thinking about only allowing a few, one or two at most. I ran across an house rule for C&C using "talents" which are just feats renamed. It suggested one at first and another every three levels.
Even that seems a bit much for my taste. I'm now thinking about allowing one talent at level 2, one at level 6, and the last at level 12. I think three is enough to add flavor and customization. Not enough to totally overload my game.

S&W and C&C Saves and other options.

Please excuse me if this makes a tasty hamburger out of your sacred cow. But As I've said before I didn't grow up playing original D&D. I did start in the hobby by playing 1E AD&D, But I have no sacred cows. I play Swords & Wizardry and Castles & Crusades because I like rules-lite and easy to tinker and customize to taste systems. I do not see my self as part of the OSR or any other sub-faction of the old school movement. I actually really like 4E D&D, I just don't feel its right for my current tastes in a games.

I really like the idea of the three saves as target numbers from 4E D&D. I don't see any reason I could not incorporate them into S&W or C&C. Or any other game for that reason. I think the one save rule of S&W is pretty genius. But Doesn't always fit in my opinion. And Having the three saves for C&C doesn't have to replace the siege or the current save system. For example dodging the effects of a trap is still a trap save. But if a giant is throwing a rock he needs to roll against your Reflexe.

Adding feats to C&C. One of the major turn offs for me about 3E D&D was feat bloat. Just too many. So I love the idea of using "talents" which are feats renamed. I like the idea of getting one at first and one additional every 3 to 5 levels. Giving a few talents to customize the character to taste.

Some custom C&C classes.

Ok these two are not all that custom. They are just reworking of existing classes to get some more variety.

First up the priest.

While the Cleric is a divine caster and warrior, I want the priest to be just a divine caster. So I'm using the Wizards as a template. The priests HD, BtH, EPP, and spells per day will be that of the wizard. Rather than have bonus spells the priest can Turn undead like a cleric of the same level. Also instead of casting wizard spells the priest casts clerical divine spells. The priests weapon selection is that of the cleric, Armor is the same as the wizard, none.

Next up, The Warden.

A Warden is a warrior priest in the druidic order. For this I am using the cleric as a template. But rather than Divine spells the Warden casts Druitic spells.their HD, BtH, and EEP are all those of a cleric. Weapon sellection is that of a cleric. Wardens may wear padded, leather, Hide, and studded leather. Wardens can use Wooden shields of any size. Wardens get woodland stride and resist elements as a druid of the same level.
At level 10 the Warden gets  totem shape as if it was a level 6 Druid.

The warden is a reworked idea from 4E. By no means was I trying to reproduce it from 4E. Just replicate the class type for my own game.

More to come.